Hélène Doué is one of the most popular aikido teachers of her generation. An exemplary technician, she is also particularly approachable and her kindness and pedagogy have made her an example for many to follow. Hélène was part of the delegation of the International Aikido Federation having been invited to train in the O Senseï dojo, and participate in aikido demonstrations during the 74th National Sports Festival of Japan. Having been invited to help cover the event, I took the opportunity to ask Hélène to give me a moment to do this interview. Given the large number of practitioners on site, it was not easy to find a place to film, and I must warmly thank Inagaki Shigemi Shihan, the chief instructor of the Ibaraki branch of Aikikai, for l to have allowed to make this interview in the O Sensei's dojo.
Guillaume Erard: How did you start Aikido?
Hélène Doué: By chance. When I was 9 years old, I was living next to the Cercle Tissier in Vincennes. I had a friend who was doing Aikido and who brought me to the Cercle Tissier. I sat on the edge of the tatami and watched a class, and I asked to be enrolled on the spot, twice per week.
It was unusual at the time because children usually practiced once a week. I fell into it when I was little (laughs). I started in 1989 so it's going to be my 30th year of practice, all of it at the Cercle Tissier. I went to all the classes at the Cercle, I did the children's classes, the teenagers classes, the adult classes, the weapons classes… When I turned 17, I started the weapons classes so it's been thirty years of practice with Christian and with his students who taught at the Cercle.
Guillaume Erard: Many people have trained at Le Cercle Tissier over the years but relatively few actually started there.
Hélène Doué: That's right, there aren't that many who have such a long experience. For instance, the children who started with me all stopped. I don't know any who have continued and unfortunately, this is still the case from generation to generation, there are some who continue, but not many... What I notice though, is that people who started early often end up becoming professionals, teach classes, or get invested in the discipline for a long time, but there are few, it's true.
Hélène Doué preparing the evening demonstration with Satomi Ishikawa.
Guillaume Erard: What are the advantages and disadvantages of starting aikido practice at Le Cercle Tissier?
Hélène Doué: I'll start with the pros… It's the largest European center for Aikido, there are many people of all levels. There are many high level people of course and many teachers too, so it's challenging from the get go. There are beginners classes in Vincennes though, which allows you to have some scaffolding before getting to the big yard. So that's a real opportunity to progress quickly because you are with people who practice well, with good teachers.
The drawback is that you have to hang on because it's a bit hard, the level is high, the pace of practice is fast… Excellence is demanding so it takes a special kind of people who are ready to commit to it. It is true that people who come only for leisure will have a little harder time staying long in this particular club.
Guillaume Erard: Over the past thirty years, things have changed, if only in relation to the degree of involvement of Christian Tissier in the daily practice...
Hélène Doué: Yes and no, because he tries to be present very regularly when he is not in teaching abroad, which requires him to be absent in the week. In spite of that, he has a regularity of presence about which we can be honored and proud because he does that every week and it must not be easy for him. He is still very, very present.
We are also lucky in that even though some teachers have changed over time of years, we have some stability in the teachers who are there. I am talking about Pascal Guillemin, Bruno Gonzales, and Fabrice Croizé, who have been here for years of course, but we also had other teachers who were there for a long time and who built the foundations. That's the richness of this place, having Christian's teachings twice a week, supplemented by a number of teachers who are there to ensure the continuity.
At the time it was Pascal and Bruno who took care of the basics for Christian so that he could teach the more advanced material. Today it has changed a bit, that is to say that each teacher having also gone up in rank, they tend to teach their personal work a bit more, so in that sense, maybe there are fewer teachers who teach the basics nowadays. It may be a bit more diverse in the ways of teaching, maybe that's what has evolved. But Christian's presence is just as important today compared to when I started.
Guillaume Erard: During these thirty years, has anything changed at the technical level, or in terms of atmosphere within the dojo?
Hélène Doué: In the atmosphere, yes, certainly. I have to put that in context: When I started going to adult classes, I was 14. I was with my brown belt and my hakama, and the first 3 years until I got my black belt were very very difficult because the teaching was perhaps harder, more physical. I mean physical in the sense: a little rough, so I got hurt quite a bit. The etiquette was perhaps stricter too. It was a little harder overall. The relationships between people were hard too.
Today the relationships are technical, tonic, physical, but perhaps more benevolent. People are a bit more caring with each other, men towards women, women towards each other… I have known a time when women were hard with each other, women were tough with men, men… It was a hard environment overall in terms of physical relationships but even more so in terms of human relationships, and that was the hardest thing.
Today, of course I don't have the same level, nor the same experience, we should ask people who start nowadays… I think it's still hard for them but it's hard because the technical level and the expectations are high. I think that it is in the relations between people that it has evolved in a good way. This is not only my opinion, I heard it from several generations of practitioners and female practitioners especially. I think it has evolved… It's still as intense but I would say it's also more caring.
Guillaume Erard: What about technically?
Hélène Doué: The technical consistency is still there, of course, because the people who teach at Le Cercle Tissier are students of Christian so there is a definite consistency, but those are people who have evolved in their practice so they don't teach now in the same way as they taught before. Obviously Christian's teaching has evolved as well. But there might have been more of a direct connection between the various classes that we did from Monday to Friday, because I was doing all the classes of the Cercle.
There was maybe a more systematic repetition, suwari, hanmi handachi, tachi waza... I remember classes with Bruno where we did a lot of suwari waza and hanmi handachi waza, which really gave us the keys to practice afterwards in tachi waza. Maybe today they all teach a little less on their knees so perhaps we do less of it. They don't have the same level either, so they don't teach the same things. So it's possible that the discourse is now more geared towards people who have already learned the basics elsewhere while before, it was perhaps easier to catch up with the pace of the classes. That's a feeling that I have.
Guillaume Erard: Because in terms of staff it's the same people?
Hélène Doué: It's roughly the same people, Pascal, Bruno, Fabrice, and Patrick as well. Patrick Benezzi has been teaching for a long time. Philippe Orban, Daniel Bourguignon who was teaching the Friday night class, Philippe Bersani who taught weapons classes, Marc Bachraty, they're all gone now. Some teachers have come and gone, but for people who've been practicing for a long time, we've had the same teachers for 15 - 20 years, it didn't change...
Teachers have moved on in their teaching and in their practice, of course. When I met Pascal, he must have been 2nd or 3rd dan, now he is 6th dan, same for Bruno, so obviously it's not the same context and perhaps today the teachers allow themselves a more personal approach.
Guillaume Erard: The Cercle Tissier welcomes many visitors throughout the year. What is the visitors to members ratio?
Hélène Doué: It's hard to evaluate because the economic circumstances have changed a little too. I think there are fewer people who can afford, economically or in terms of time, to do all the classes of the Cercle. There are also fewer visitors from abroad than before. I remember people coming from Poland or Germany, who stayed months and months sleeping at the dojo. It's still hapening but it's less frequent. More people do round-trips, and fewer spend several months in the dojo, for sure. I think it's more to do with economic circumstances than anything else.
I terms of people from the Cercle, it's a bit more difficult to evaluate because there are people who come at lunchtime and others come in the evenings. It's not like it's two different clubs, but there's a bit of that. Many teachers come at noon because for us it's convenient, we have our classes at night, so we come to train during lunchtime, and the people who come more as a hobby come after work.
I think there's still a large number of people who are from the Cercle Tissier, but in terms of people who take all the classes, I think it's about 20 people at most. People who do all the classes, all the seminars, and who also train outside the dojo, wherever Christian goes. It's probably about 20 peoples out of the whole lot. The total number of people at the Cercle Tissier is much more important than that.
Hélène interviewed in front of the Aiki-Jinja by the FIA media team.
Guillaume Erard: Have you ever practiced another style of aikido?
Hélène Doué: No, as Christian says, I am a pure product of Vincennes. I didn't spread myself. Having started as a child, the logic was to do everything that Christian did, so I followed him in seminars a lot. I also followed Pascal Guillemin a lot, Bruno's seminars, a little less, but it was the norm to follow the deshi in their seminars. So for my training, I mostly did the classes at the Cercle, and seminars with Christian.
Guillaume Erard: When did you decide to devote yourself full time to aikido?
Hélène Doué: Unlike many moms, it's when I got my first boy that I switched to completely to doing Aikido, because Fabrice doing the same thing, we had a symmetry in our schedules that allowed us to take care of our children a lot during the day since we work during lunchtimes, evenings, and weekends, so we can really take care of the all the rest of the time. I worked a lot before in the industry of the games and the toys I liked it a lot, I worked in game libraries, toy stores, game events, that's something that speaks to me and that is important to me, but, as I went along, I had more and more responsibilities, classes, seminars to teach, and when I gave birth to my first child... I never really decided it but it was in the logic of things to switch completely,
Guillaume Erard: You and Fabrice both teach in your respective dojo.
Hélène Doué: like Fabrice, as an aikido professional to harmonize our schedules and take care of our children. Yes, Fabrice has his dojo in Montreuil, in the suburbs, where I teach children's classes, and I opened a dojo ten ago years in the south of Paris, near the Place d'Italie where I started ... it's a municipal dojo, so I started with two students and after ten years, I am very happy because we are more than 100 adults. So it's a dojo that's starting to run well. Some have been there since the beginning but because of my curriculum, a lot of people also come from outside. In the past few years, the dojo got more populated, with people who are 4th dan, or 5th dan sometimes, who come to follow my teaching in addition to what they do in their own dojo. I have teachers who come too, so it gives density and of course additional responsibilities to the teaching, but after 10 years there is a part of the groundwork of the dojo that's been established, and it's very pleasing.
Guillaume Erard: Does your practice still focus mainly on your dojo, or is it rather centered on your seminar?
Hélène Doué: For now, I'm trying to really stay present... The dojo is still too recent, I haven't trained people yet who are able to substitute for me, with the adequate credentials. People still have to move up the ranks and get diplomas. So I'm always present for my classes, but it's true that I have more and more seminars to give on weekends, I have a little over twenty seminars to teach, in the future it will be the real challenge to be attentive to both. But it's true that it's starting now, since I've been appointed this year as director... -- No, what is it called now? It'S not called DTR... -- I'm Regional Technical Referent for Normandy, following the reform of the Technical College of our Federation, so I'm going to have extra responsibilities so more obligations and more seminars... I also have a few seminars abroad which are becoming regular, so it's creating interesting new opportunities, but it will take a little rigor to be able to run things seriously, and so that no one is left out. It seems important to me that the people of the dojo... don't feel "abandoned" because it is still the foundation of the practice, for a teacher, in my opinion it's his dojo that's the most important, the people he trains, how he teaches, who will keep practicing in future... Seminars are great, it's very good to promote one's practice, but the base is the dojo.
Guillaume Erard: After thirty years of practice of the same budo, in the same environment, what motivates you to continue stepping on the tatami?
Hélène Doué: I believe that what keeps the desire for practice is simply the joy of being on a tatami... The joy of doing the movements, of being kneaded, of kneading others, it's simple things, really, I think we shouldn't look... In my case, I'm not looking for what isn't there. It's a simple pleasure, and consequently, it's easy enough to get back to it. We don't ask too many questions even if, obviously, there are moments when it's more difficult than others to step on the tatami. It's not that we get demotivated, but we can have pain everywhere, we can be less inspired, it's important to take breaks from time to time as well, to keep moments without Aikido, to renew one's inspiration, I think... It brings me a lot of serenity I think. It's the right word, a lot of stability... Since Fabrice is doing the same thing, I think we agree a lot, we listen to each other a lot, we support each other a lot, I think it's very important for us too to be two in the practice. I think I wouldn't have the same profile if I was a practitioner and my companion wasn't. We often talk about it with people who are in this situation, they are the only one practicing, it is not always easy to share the joys and the sorrows of the tatami, the responsibilities, Fabrice also has responsibilities, he is DFR of Guyana from this season, so he too is made to travel a lot. So we have the same kind of journey and evolution in our journey, so it allows us to share and stay grounded, not to go into considerations... Have ideas... Staying open, staying simple, not to think that if we have seminars, more classes, e more students... Stay humble. I think it helps to be two also on that, it grounds you. Yes, it helps a lot for putting things into perspective, especially things that don't go well. If tomorrow we're no longer Director of a region or if we have a period when we get less seminars, or we aren't asked to participate to an event, it means it was not our job to do it, or that it wasn't the right time. I try to stay honest and simple in our practice without a second thought. I think that's what characterizes us both, I speak for Fabrice, but that's the way we see things. We aren't complicated people. We like the practice, we like people, we like what we do. We try to get on with it and to always have joy and envy, simply.
Guillaume Erard: Fabrice and you are both prominent aikido teachers, do you sometimes compete with each other?
Hélène Doué: I think there never was. In 20 years that we are together, there never was any competition at all. I consider Fabrice as my sempai because he was more senior than me already when I arrived so as teenager, he was already 1st dan or 2nd, I don't remember, so for me he was already a model. I asked him to help me prepare for my 1st dan, shy, timidly, so that was the beginning of our relationship but I always had Fabrice as a reference. I took his classes in Vincennes, I went to his seminars, I continue to go with pleasure. Nothing makes me more happy than to do an seminar with Fabrice so I think there was never any idea of competition between us. There was already enough of it around us, or from other people towards us, without us wanting it, for us to want to put competition in our relationship and as aikidoka. We've been able to work thewe things out pretty quickly. When we're both practitioners, we have a relationship as practitioners, when he is a teacher, I am a student, We know how to work those things things out, but in terms of competition, it never happened, for neither of us.
Guillaume Erard: The Cercle Tissier is not always an easy place for visitors. People often mention the fact that in this environment, you and Fabrice clearly stand out in terms of your accessibility and kindness.
Hélène Doué: Yes it is not trivial because since for us it has been hard when we arrived, we really didn't want it to happen again for the maximum of people with whom we were in contact. That's something that we did deliberately. We've always worked to try to welcome people, -- within the limits of our possibilities because we are not omnipresent -- but when we practiced a lot and every day, it was easier of course, we still have 2 lunchtime classes per week with Christian, we try to continue doing it but if it's not in Vincennes, it'll be during seminars or other occasions, any event where we meet people, we always try facilitate relationships without allowing ourselves to be overwhelmed, that's the risk since we are pretty open people. Within reason, we try to keep friendly relations with people, but to remain mainly facilitators so that there is a good energy that circulates. On our small scale, if we can contribute to it, it's really something we've tried to do, for years actually. So...
Guillaume Erard: How does this translate into your teaching? Do you teach in a different way from the way you were taught?
Hélène Doué: I always have in mind what Christian said, he often tells us that he didn't learn how to do suwari-waza, he was doing shikko, with no indication, no "technique", so that's why the've damaged their knees a lot... When we talk with many elders, they tell us: We went for it, but we didn't think too much. Experienced practitioners have often told me that our generations, are just as physical but also more technical. So, there is wear and tear, of course, but probably less. Perhaps we have gained in terms of precision and advice given to students. In my classes, I always do suwari and hanmi handachi. I was never taught much how to how to place the ankles, how to orientate the knees, how to place the hips, we walked, and that was it. But I try to give them more precise indications. Also for front and back falls. As for me, I just fell. I was not told: "You put your hand like this", "You do like this", whereas today, yes, I will be much more a pedagogical on all things to do upstream of the practice, how to place yourself to fall, start at different levels, maybe on the ground before getting up... I continue to do it because it's part of my heritage so I transmit it of course, but with perhaps more instructions and... safety, for the body, to be able to do it longer. I hope that it works, we'll talk about it in 20 years, I don't know, maybe I'll have knee pain too. So perhaps a little more pedagogy and instruction, maybe it helps to last longer.
Guillaume Erard: In a few words, how would you describe your own aikido?
Hélène Doué: I'm often told... I do not have the internal sensation, but I'm often told that I have an aikido that is clear and clean. That it's easy to read, easy to reproduce. It seems difficult to be able to do the same movement four times. Bruno Gonzalez who told us: If you can do the same movement four times without changing any detail, it means that you are able to anchor things in a very structured way. I kept that in mind and I'm trying to do it, up to a certain limit, that it doesn't stiffen the body. The work I'm trying to do is not to break free from the form but it's to try things out more. I tell my students to allow themselves to make rough drafts, to do things that are not beautiful, to do things that are not satisfactory for them, things a little more direct, to avoid being in something too polished. The extreme counterpart of being clear and clean is maybe to be a bit too smooth. That's what I say to myself. Perhaps doing things more lively, more natural, more spontaneous, maybe that's my research for the moment. I don't have a preconceived idea... I don't police myself, I do what I like to do. Often, if it is a private seminar, I do what I like to do in my dojo at that particular time, explore a sensation, explore placements, explore various things that interest me when I do it in my dojo. I don't have a set idea because it's going to be different, because I'm a woman. -- I don't want to talk about men's aikido and women's aikido, -- but as a female teacher, necessarily it will be different, presented differently, experienced differently. I try to practice with people, it's really something that I like to do, to make me feel. I get a lot of inspiration from what Yoko Okamoto does because it's someone I admire a lot and I like a lot and she does it a lot in her seminars. She goes with people, she gives a lot of herself, she really conveys it with her body. I answered an interview not long ago where I said: It's true that when I go to meet people during seminars, I try to convince them with my body and not by my speech. In the end, in this kind of martial discipline, our peer recognize us because we convince them physically. That's the way I see it. I try to teach by making them feel what I'm doing. That's my idea.
Guillaume Erard: For a woman, is it important to have access to female teachers?
Hélène Doué: It's complementary to practice, that is to say that I had mostly men teacher. They were all benevolent, very structuring, and treated me equally, there was neither positive discrimination nor exclusion at all -- on the part of the teachers at least --. So I didn't feel any difference in the way I was treated. So I can say that it would have been just the same, whether I had male or female teachers. Even so, it's still an easier access door, for a female practitioner, to have a female referent at the start because it may be more reassuring. Perhaps the first step will be a bit more difficult, -- maybe, -- if it's a referent man at the start. I refer a lot to the classes I give at the university because I have classes for college students, and it turns out that Aikido, I'm in the martial arts section and I'm the only female teacher. Last year I had 73 people enrolled and an overwhelming majority of girls. So I think that for a beginner, it's a little easier if at the beginning, they have some female referents, to be able to have options. After that it's okay. With the diversity of practice and teaching evens it all. It's not essential. That's why, again, that I don't insist on whether teachers are male or female, they're just teachers.
Perhaps as a first access door, yes, it's easier, maybe.
Guillaume Erard: Are the current conditions more favorable for a woman who would like to pursue a career in aikido?
Hélène Doué: Maybe yes, with the efforts that are made on all sides, as you said. On the part of the State, on the part of politicians in general, on the part of the IAF... Things are changing, the lines move so maybe it creates openings. Women may realize that they have more opportunities than they thought. There are many factors. When I was pregnant, I continued to practice, in a very careful way, and especially to teach until the end of my pregnancies. Then the Federation contacted me saying: "Yes, it's true, we hadn't thought of that," but yes, there is a definite possibility that ... So I was asked to share my experience to see how far women could remain integrated in the dojos when they were pregnant. It was not limiting, it was not contraindicated, if precautions were taken. So I think the lines are moving and maybe in the future, we are at the beginning, but there will be more ... opportunities for women to feel able, invited, given room, to engage more in practice, more over the long term, without breaks in practice, yes.
Guillaume Erard: Statistically, there are more men than women who hold high ranks, and there in an overwhelming male representation in the technical staff. Is it the result of a political decision, or are there just fewer women who are interested in devoting themselves to aikido?
Hélène Doué: I think there is a bit of both, I think there is still some reluctance, let's face it. There are both possibilities, that is to say, they're not given much space because traditionally there is no need for it, or they're given limited space, during children classes, or limited responsibilities on lower tasks... On the other hand, there are others... There is a clash of generations we're on a transition. There are people who really want to change things, to bring out a real diversity, and then there are still pockets of resistance yes, of course. We haven't finished the transition. It's normal that, in fact, there are still not many high-ranking women yet. We were discussing with Vilko Vriesman, about the fact that there will be a generation gap while things change. Below my generation, there will be a gap, and then, the base will be reformed. At the moment, we're lacking young females between 20 and 30 who could take over. Perhaps right now, those females don't yet see that there is a future for them. It's a hard question indeed ...
Guillaume Erard: Although their number seems to be decreasing, what are the main motivations for young people to take up aikido?
Hélène Doué: I think there are a lot of young people, 18-25 years old, who are potentially interested in Aikido because that just gives them a way to to let off steam, to work out, but without competition because that, really, is something that weighs on them in their studies, in the pressures for the job after, they have a multitude of things that accumulate. Here they have a discipline that offers them just to free themselves without having any ulterior motive, or objective, so that, I think that's a real argument in our favor. It sets us apart from judo and Karate because it's perhaps a little less rough, which comes from the fact that there is not real combat, but we need to present things well, because they aren't going to buy into anything. Perhaps before, we could just be a teacher and students would come to us, but today's teachers must go a little more out to get the students. We need to diversify the public and go get the youngsters where they are. to tell them: "Aikido is good and it will do you good" you'll be able to work out and sweat. In fact, they're looking for an Aikido that is dynamic. An Aikido that is too intellectual would bore them. Some of my students also study science, or other technical things, so they don't want to get into something else really intellectual, they want to let off some steam, within a framework that suits them, because Aikido is very ritualized and technical. Perhaps we have a profile of practitioners... Generally, statistical studies on the profile of Aikdio practitioners show that it doesn't cover all of the socio-professional categories. It's a fact. So we have to go and get the youths because French youths like Japanese culture, manga, culture, everything... and the desire to let stem off and free themselves while learning a martial art. There might also be an aspect of self-defense, self-confidence, control over one's emotions... there are many fields in which we have a public for the next generation.
Guillaume Erard: With all the information that is available today, it seems difficult to promote aikido in the same way as it was done before, in particular with regard to the fantasized representation of the 70's and 80's with the myths of the invincible warrior, etc. What image should we present of aikido to promote it today?
Hélène Doué: It's true that the arguments that we used to present, as something very traditional, a conception that might have fitted the 70's and 80's, can't be used at all anymore. But once again, the youths are really into it. As an example, they think it's fantastic when a character does Aikido in a show like "The Walking Dead", or when they find a character that does Aikido in a Japanese series, In "La Casa de Papel", they have an episode in the 3rd season that talks about Aikido, it goes viral on social networks before it talks about Aikido for 2 minutes, those are signs that Aikido has a good image and we need to make use of it. Whether people are practitioners or not, it interest them that we speak about Aikido in their favorite series. We need to find a way to communicate that is a little more modern. A bit more tangible and pragmatic.
Guillaume Erard: Let's talk about the role of aikido outside of the tatami. What has aikido brought to your life that another discipline could not have brought you?
Hélène Doué: We often say that Aikido is a big family. It's true! I did volleyball, swimming, and other sport activities, -- apart from competition, that I'll set aside because I didn't like it at all -- there is a structuring of the Aikido system that seemed very constructive to me as a teenager, even though I couldn't explain it. Today I can put words on it but back then, it was an intuition,. I had the feeling that my seniors and sempai, close to me, people who were below me, and my teachers, all formed a whole. We were going something together, and that was going to be great. It's something really structuring and reassuring. In terms of the richness of relationships between people, in terms of relationships that run over 10 or 20 years of interactions, it may be unique... Out of all the sports activities that I did, that is the most unique thing. Often, practitioners come... They come for practice of course, but also for social link that it creates. For the family that they may not have and a number of other reasons. I can see now I'm here, there are some people I know, others that I don't, there is a sort of emulsion that take place, we take part in the same activities, we get the feeling to be working on something that is larger than us, that puts us in the same family beyond frontiers. It's quite exceptional in Aikido.
Guillaume Erard: Aikido has been practiced in Europe for more than 60 years, and the overall technical level has nothing to envy to that of Japan. So, is the connection with Japan still important?
Hélène Doué: Yes, it's important. You asked me earlier about my training, it's true that I mainly followed Christian, but it's also true that today, Fabrice and I like to open up the field of our practice by going to see the Japanese Sensei, Miyamoto Sensei, Yasuno Sensei, Yoko, people like that... For Yoko, it's a bit different because she really is someone with whom we have a great friendship, but it completes our practice, that's to say that from a certain point of view... it's also good to get into the origins of aikido. The culture interests us, it's a whole. The country interests us because it's very beautiful too. There are a lot of things that complement each other, but it's true that it seems important to me... Finally, in the teachers I know, there are a number who are very attached to keeping with the transmission of Japanese words, the etiquette, etc. There are things we really have to keep to keep the core of our discipline. It’s true however that in France, there are a lot of dojo that have loosened the etiquette a little. [At the Cercle Tissier] I have known very strict etiquette. Very... rigid... What I see today is maybe sometimes a little too relaxed in some dojos, We need to try to keep a middle ground, to keep some kind of consistency with what's going on at Honbu, with Doshu... When we attend Doshu's classes, we realize that we're doing the same thing. To keep this filiation, this connection, I think there is still a certain amount of things we need to keep, both on the vocabulary and on the transmission of rules that may seem to us... Perhaps as Europeans, we don't relate to all of the rules, and some seem too extreme to us because it's not our culture, but there are a lot of them that are common sense, for living in society, living in a community with people, so it seems important to me to come back here to face it for real, from time to time. The teaching of all these Japanese masters that we like, it's also a way for us, to add variety to our practice, not to lock yourself into something... even if we love what we do, we always try to stay open. Christian always asks us to open our palette of tools, and tells us that it's a prism, everything we do comes down to one thing and opens up to other things. Perhaps that practicing here or to follow those teachers when they come to France, enriches our practice, it forces us not to stay on our own rails, not to close doors. It also gives us some freedom in terms of what we are doing, and how we are.
Hélène answering my questions in O Sensei's dojo
Guillaume Erard: As a professional teacher of a Japanese martial art, do your students expect you to speak Japanese or to know Japanese culture?
Hélène Doué: It will depend on the audience. For people in my club, it's pretty variable. There are some that we will have to take gently towards a bit more culture, because they only see it as a hobby, they could easily do something else as a sport, and others who actually come with a vision, and an interest for Japan. As for the college students, they're very fond of it. They have all this pre-existing knowledge about Japanese culture, and I have to feed them more. They are samurai enthusiasts, weapon enthusiasts, I can't do a class with them without showing some sword or jo. It's something I have to do... In that case, I'm a package, I must live up to their expectations in terms of Japanese culture, that's for sure, that's for sure.
Guillaume Erard: The image you have of Japan today must be very different from the one you had when you started, perhaps less romantic. How do you feel about this loss of illusions?
Hélène Doué: Well it's better, actually, because it's... Because it's concrete, because it's... It seems logical... Yes it's... It's not mystical, it's not fictionalized, it's not fantasized, it is concrete and it ultimately conforms to what we expected, perhaps... because we were perhaps expecting particular setting, something imaginary, with some misconceptions... In the end, I want to say that it's better because it's true and it meets our expectations, otherwise we would have stopped practicing. So it's good, it's not disappointing, on the contrary, it's perhaps more authentic in that sense.
Guillaume Erard: Has the way you present aikido changed according to that?
Hélène Doué: Maybe closer to reality, yes, maybe. Maybe more complete. When I first taught, I was very focused on technique, to transmit it very rigorously but very simply what I had been taught. I was definitely not aware of all that it could represent at least for the people who came to practice, and maybe for me too unconsciously, but I was not aware of it actually. Now I realize that people perhaps also need to know a little bit more about the culture. They need that to structure themselves. You can't do without it, without going too far, because we're not going to drown them in it, and I also learn little by little, I feel very small in my knowledge, even today. I try to follow everything that is going on and not to make mistakes, but I learn a lot by mimicry, but I try to convey what I think is right. In the end, it's very modest because we have the feeling that, everything is a bit complex in the relationships between the Sensei and the students, the relationship of the students with each other... It seems to me to be a somewhat complex system... I'm tackling part of the iceberg but maybe I haven't figured it all out yet. Maybe I'll gradually go deeper in my understanding of what the relationships are, what transmission is... I feel like a beginner.
Guillaume Erard: Earlier, you were talking about aikido as a big family. I think one of the most important elements of the practice in Japan is the cohesion of the group. How are things on your side in France?
Hélène Doué: Absolutely, yes, because we tend to... segment the practice: practice for the children, the practice for the elderly, for the youth, etc. Maybe we should get everyone back together, without over-closing each other's practices because maybe it feels comfortable for a while but on the tatami, people are all together. When people come to see me, I tell them right away that the lessons are mixed, mixed in age, mixed in gender, mixed in size, so that they are not surprised because sometimes, the communication that we sell them is: "Just come!" Sometimes people tell me: "Won't we just be among women?" No, because that's not what aikido is about, and if you're not ready to accept it right away, you will be disappointed. Today private lessons and personalized classes are quite trendy... I'm often asked for private lessons in aikido, I say yes, if you want to work on a specific point, or if you want to focus on something for a class or two, but I can't tutor someone privately through a progression because the goal is still to be in the group. Yes it is true, I think that we must replace our discourse in the... We practice together, that's what makes the richness of the exchanges, yes.
Guillaume Erard: Aikido wants to be relevant in the context and in the period in which it is practiced, and its practice is therefore necessarily diverse. As a pure product of the Cercle Tissier, have you ever dealt with a type of aikido that has little to do with what you do?
Hélène Doué: Not yet. Not yet like... I'd say that I have already seen a lot by going around as a practitioner. I followed Christian a lot, everywhere in France and abroad, so it allowed me to see the conditions of practice, the different cultures, the influences of the teachers who went there, Japanese or European, so it already allows to clear the plane field and to have a global idea of the different styles, the collisions that can occur, or the various tastes in terms of practice. It allows you to anticipate problems, for example, in northern countries, it may not be the same as in eastern countries and still not the same as in countries such as Italy, Spain ... The relation towards practice is not going to be the same, and sometimes even in different regions in France, it's not the same either. So the fact of having seen a lot of practitioners, having been among practitioners, it really helps. Observing how the teacher deals with the group, gets by, there's a lot to learn from that too I think because it helps, and it avoids falling into certain pitfalls once you are a teacher yourself. I'm still at the beginning, I haven't been all around the world to teach, I'm just starting out, but I'm trying to function like this to best meet people's expectations and not to try to impose something on them that they won't buy into because it doesn't suit them, or it's too much radically different. There are ways of proposing things, to invite them to do things rather than to impose on them, to make them come to share the practice. Yes, it's one way to position yourself as a teacher, and a sensitivity towards how practitioners are in different places. Not at my level.
Guillaume Erard: Aikido wants to be relevant in the context and in the period in which it is practiced, and its practice is therefore necessarily diverse. As a pure product of the Cercle Tissier, have you ever dealt with a type of aikido that has little to do with what you do?
Hélène Doué: Very sincerely not at my level because the people who invite me are... They're either people who have known me for a very long time, so they know why they are inviting me, or they're clubs which want a filiation with Christian, who invite me because they're into the kind of things we do, so I don't have that yet. So, perhaps it's due to my level, or to the places I've been going to until now. I don't have that kind of problem right now because I don't have... I think I'm not yet at this level of responsibility, quite simply. Maybe it will happen in the future, but for now I'm free, for now it's fine.
Guillaume Erard: As a teacher, have you ever found yourself teaching during an internship and realizing that people did not practice for the same reasons as you?
Hélène Doué: So... Between teachers of my generation, we have no trouble working together. Maybe it'll come as we taken on more responsibilities... or as our realm of influence grows, maybe we’ll hinder each other more, I don’t know, but I have the impression that we have a state of mind where we work very well together. Even if we don't have direct relations, we are very respectful, not ... I have the feeling that we are quite collaborative in general. Then, with the generation before us, there are two types of profiles, it's not complicated: there are the elders who are very helpful, very caring, very... who take us by the hand and make things easier for us, who ensure the transmission and the lineage, and then there are those who are less like that, and who are more cautious, more rigid in their way of looking at things, more closed, which leave us no room. It's pretty easy for us to position ourselves between the two. Too bad for those who don't want, because we work with those who give us some room. We're lucky to have people who welcome us, who know that we aren't going to take their place, who are secure in the knowledge that we'll respect them. There is no misunderstanding on this, no doubt, it is very very clear, the relationships are very easy and it facilitates the transmission. We won't force the hand of those who don't want to. We can't please everyone. There are really the two scenarios: those who don't want and those who want.
Guillaume Erard: One day, your generation will be at the head of Aikido. What would you like Aikido to become when you are in charge?
Hélène Doué: I think we have to keep our diversity at all costs because it's the strength of our discipline, to always encourage people. It's diversity in the broad sense: so that all generations are present on the tatami, that the two sexes are present, not necessarily equally, but well represented. To keep this mix so that it doesn't become something closed and compartmentalized. I think is very important. And then, to make people want to invest themselves in a regular manner. I have the feeling that there are a lot of people who invest themselves in spurts, or irregularly... Perhaps it's always been the case, it may not be the byproduct of our current society, but if we could make people feel that to progress, we need a basic regularity, and then if we want to go further, it's not complicated, like in any discipline, any body art, anything, you have to invest ourselves, and in the long term. I think that's what our challenge is... We shouldn't be consumers, we should regard it as a way to to have something that structures us for years and that maintains us, that allows us to live harmoniously, with all the values of our discipline, but regularity of practice and long-term investment, I think that's what is going to be a crucial point, especially among young people, so we need get the message across.
Guillaume Erard: The federal system is often criticized in aikido. What do you think of this system and is it still suitable for practice?
Hélène Doué: At the level we're at, we have the feeling with Fabrice that it is important that we stay in a federation, because it ensures cohesion between all the high ranking teachers because we meet twice a year at seminars so we discuss the principles of practice, we always have things... we share our points of view... I learn a lot because I just entered the technical college so I still learn a lot from my elders. So it seems important to us to stay in a federation because from a teaching point of view, it ensures cohesion, even if everyone has their own ideas, there are strong personalities, it forces us not to be in our own little worlds, so it gives overall technical consistency even if there are differences in style anyway, we keep a structure and some relationships. We keep links. Every system has its flaws of course. Perhaps the members are less aware of it, and they sometimes have the impression that the federation is useless, but if we have a cohesion among teachers and technicians, and consistency from the Board of Directors and the administrative people who organize the federation, the message that we are going to transmit, the message that the teachers will transmit in the clubs ... There is obviously loss in what is broadcast but it nonetheless ensures a national cohesion. If our system is well structured, with diplomas, with the means to become a teacher, with ways to become a volunteer, with ... It's still thanks to our federation and the means that are used to train people, on an ad hoc or on an ongoing basis, so it ensures a stability, a consistency of the system. That said, I can understand that there are elders or people who want to leave, because they have already given a lot or because they see the disadvantages more than the advantages, but at our level, we see more the advantages than the disadvantages, very hoenstly.
Guillaume Erard: France has a very high teacher / student ratio and a large number of professional teachers. On the other hand, we also know that the number of licensees is decreasing. Is this system viable in the long term?
Hélène Doué: Yes, yes, it's true that we tend to say that there are too many teachers and not enough students. I think that one of the solutions is really not to wait for the students to come, you have to ... I went to work for 10 years with young autistic people in a Medico-Educational Institute ... There is aikido for children, of course ... Then, I think that there is a way to diversify quite a bit the audiences we reach, but we have to go and find them. Same in public policies, sport for health, sport for women, sport in business, all that, these are really missions that are very important for sports policy right now, so the teachers have to take the problem head on and not hesitate to take steps, take their little papers under their arms and go and open clubs because there aren't aikido clubs everywhere. We often tend to wait for a teacher to leave a dojo to take his place, well no, go to the town next door, there is certainly no aikido, and often it's the case! There is a high population density but there is no aikido club, so why not take the steps to open one? And then after, yes, I think we have to ... We have to change profile, not become a salesman for Aikido, but not hesitate to go to work with other audiences, go and get them because there is a real wealth to develop for yourself as a teacher, and then all that will hopefully bring people who will come to practice in clubs afterwards, if it's deemed that it's practice in the club which is the base and that's what counts for the federal figures, all the missions that will be carried out by teachers who go each for themselves, according to their affinities, to seek ... to do in any, it can be in a retirement home, it can be in business it can be ... There are a lot of coaches who get into aikido ... Mix concepts ... No matter, as long as the message of aikido is conveyed, I want to say that it's good to take because it gives us visibility, anyway, we are not a competitive discipline, we're hardly going to be on TV, so we have to find our means to have our own media and our own means to be known because once the message is planted, often it develops things so i think that's how new teachers who might be inclined to say that "it will be good when they give me a dojo", no, we're going to have to go get it, maybe that's what our generation and the next generations will have to do.
Guillaume Erard: France has a very high teacher / student ratio and a large number of professional teachers. On the other hand, we also know that the number of licensees is decreasing. Is this system viable in the long term?
Hélène Doué: I think it's the idea that people in the general population have of aikido which is not exact, because we are seen as people with a hakama and a stick. Often, in France, 3/4 of the practice is with bare hands, so there is an image that is completely delusional, often, that's inherited from I don't know what, which makes us "the people with the sticks", at best. So we would have to modernize a little more and feed people's imagination with terms a little more concrete, perhaps. It is true that people often have as idea the three main martial arts: judo, aikido, karate, yes. And beyond that, aikido starts to be a little vague when you have to put words on it, so maybe we should clarify a bit so that people have a clearer idea about it, so that it goes a little further, yes. For parents, to put their children in aikido, for people in business, for ... for a lot of things, people who work in hospitals, for ... Then there are questions of means, but The values which are carried by aikido, the means of action which are implemented, Aikido pedagogy, it is useful without being distorted because it’s not worth taking our concepts and then turning them into portmanteau words, but I think there is a way to transmit them in a fairly authentic way but in a modern way so that it speaks to people today and so they have a slightly more realistic image than what they have today, yes.
Guillaume Erard: In Japan, most budo is seen by people mainly as methods of personal development. What about France?
Hélène Doué: So, I would tend to say that in France, karate and judo were promoted a lot through competition. So, in fact, we tend to forget that these are educational systems just like aikido. As a result, aikido is the one that is associated to an education system and, a fortiori, when we talk to public authorities, town halls, the State, the Ministry of Sports, when presented to them as an education system, it speaks to them very directly while judo and karate, which should speak to them just as much, doesn't. It's a real problem for judokas and karatekas because they have the impression of being distorted, and they themselves often say it, they say: We're told about children's judo because 95% of our membership is children, we’re told about the competition, we’re told about the celebrities of judo... Same for karate... And it is true that there have often been attempts to return to something ... So they named it slightly differently to separate it from competition but people don't understand it all, they think it's a separate discipline, they don't think it's related to judo or karate at all so ... We, when we bring our arguments, which should be the same arguments for all the budo, we're listened to, in general, by the educational system, school, sports ministry, because Ah, you bring values, you structure people, you ... Yes, and so often we present it like that and that's what makes the difference, even though it shouldn't.
Guillaume Erard: The way it is taught today, aikido is not a quick method, nor is it particularly effective at tackling combat, and people are increasingly aware of it. Is this a good thing or a bad thing for aikido?
Hélène Doué:
I think it is... at first glance its weakness, but on second thought, its strength, because in fact there are many people who sign up for krav maga or who register for MMA, or boxing, who feel like it's going to be a system... it's sold to them as a fast system effective in few lessons immediately applicable in the street, which gives self-confidence and terrible martiality and in fact, people, after a few lessons, they hurt themselves, they don't learn that fast... Learning to kick and be efficient, or even to receive one, you have to take a certain number and they are not necessarily ready to receive them directly so they often come to see us in a second time saying: Well, I was beaten up at krav maga, couldn't we go a little more nicely? And so there, yes, there we can develop our arguments and it hits its target. On the other hand, when we present things to people who want to go a little faster, and we tell them: Wait it’s going to be a little longer, you’ll have to learn to roll, you're going to have to learn to hit, you're going to have to... You have to tell them that they will be able to have fun fairly quickly from the moment they know how to fall, that they will not endanger themselves and that they will be able to make a few movements, they will start to have fun, but the first lessons, we can't tell them that they will really feel like they are expressing themselves a lot. These, generally, will first see something more immediate, they'll either they say to themselves "it's not for me", or they'll come back. So this may be a weakness a priori, but this is what makes the strength of the system in the long run, because people can see that whatever activity they do, without effort and without duration, they'll achieve nothing, whether playing the piano, dancing, there is nothing that is immediate, so generally it puts them fairly quickly in front of reality and then after they buy or they don't buy the concept, but it is a force in second time, that, it is necessary to know how to use it like that.
Guillaume Erard: Is the loss of interest due to the fact that self-defense is a priority in the life of many people today?
Hélène Doué: Yes, I think there are more requests for applicability because the context is more anxiety-provoking. There are people who come, mothers who come, who bring their teenage daughters because they don't want harm done to them. I live in Paris, so it's a bit special with the terrorist attacks, with... The context is more anxiety-provoking so there is a desire to be able to defend oneself, to be able to respond quickly, which in my opinion was perhaps more fantasized or more idealized in the 70s and 80s. We had the ideal of the master who knows how to defend himself or ... but it was still very mystical, very idealistic. Nowadays, the expectations are very pragmatic and practical, it's not at all in the in the imaginary, t's really concrete, people want to know how to defend themselves, to fight, and now.
Guillaume Erard: When people come to your dojo to learn to fight, do you discourage them from registering?
Hélène Doué: Well it will depend on people's profiles, but if people are looking for ... if they're in a "bellicose" sort of logic, they'll initially waste their time doing aikido because they'll want to fight with everyone but they're going to be frustrated because they'll feel like they haven't been able to express their potential, etc. So maybe these people, at first, need to be directed to something more immediate, but ... So there are attempts in France to do aikido courses for self-defense, but I'm not sure it's the best solution because it's not our core... it's not our subject, we offer something that tries to avoid conflicts, to have serenity and control to not to get into trouble or to know how to resolve conflicts before they take on large proportions, we act a little ahead of the fight. In my opinion, we have to keep telling people that indeed, there is martiality, and if we have to go all the way into a conflictual relationship, maybe we will have to go all the way, so we must not evacuate all notion of martiality from our discipline, but again, it may be necessary to lead people differently so that they aren't misdirected... not mistakes, but with people for whom fighting is the most important, we shouldn't tell them that aikido is for them right way. I think that we should neither completely discourage the former, nor only cater to the others, we need all types of profiles on a tatami, we also need to fight, within our specific modes of relationships, but we need all the profiles, we can't have only people ... I was extremely shy when I was little, it's true that it taught me to open up, otherwise I wouldn't be answering you today - it would be catastrophic. I think we need all the profiles. It's the same for children we have in aikido, there are very agitated children that aikido will help stabilize and calm, and then there are others who are very very fearful and that it will open up. In my opinion, we have to harmonize everyone, but it's a difficult task, it's our job to reconcile everyone, sometimes opposites. That is true. It's true that we tend to take people from where they are at to bring them as far as possible in their human and technical development. Well, it’s true that we take on a responsibility, but maybe it's also a question of ... How to say ? This feeling that you have, it may be a question of progression in practice, it's perhaps a necessary phase for some to behave badly or to be ... to feel that they have arrived before they even started, it may be a stage of progression for some people, who knows... They may or may not get over it, but maybe it's part of it when you heckle with people, you feel like you're getting the upper hand, maybe ... some aspects of everyone's personalities can appear, it's true that when we do martial arts, we often say that we are a little naked in practice, that our personality stands out a lot so there are necessarily excesses that will come out, and hidden things that will express themselves so it's a system of harmonization, of things that are a little too prominent, with things that we have yet to cultivate. We always say that we have our qualities, but above all we have to try to work what we lack. Well, maybe it's also a passage of each one's progression, we may have moments when we are not very nice in practice, or not very ... or rough, or not very ... because there are also stages to pass so it's a hell of a mix of things. This is where the teacher's job is complicated because he has to distinguish whether this a phase of the student's development, or a trait of his personality... It's a subtle human game, yes.
Guillaume Erard: When you consider the important place that akido has in your life, do you sometimes feel the need to take a distance from this environment?
Hélène Doué: Yes, yes, yes, I also do yoga. Fabrice has been doing zen for years, so we also have activities that are distinct. We also have a constant between us, if we see that the other begins to be complacent, we don't hesitate to kick each other's butt, to remind each other. So obviously, we say it nicely, but yes yes, we watch over each other because we are not immune too... At the same time, you have to be careful not to be in a closed circuit, as you said, and to have a wide field so as not to be a rehash and think we are unique in the world but there is also a ... each of us watches over the other, we've always said it to ourselves... Sometimes, as a counterexample of certain people that we see evolving in... sometimes people we know very well or who have practiced with us in the same generation, and we say to ourselves Wow, remind me not to be like that if you see me moving in that direction! then again, weevolve in the same direction with Fabrice, but we tell ourselves that it's a chance because we could also completely diverge on our paths of choice, envy... But for the moment we remain very very consistent, but we are vigilant anyway, at least, we try to be vigilant one in relation to the other, and also to keep doing things completely outside of aikido.
