Interview with Sameshima Motonari, 8th Dan Judo Senior Councilor of the Kodokan Judo Institute

Guillaume Erard: Sensei, please introduce this event for us.

Sameshima Motonari: Kano Jigoro Sensei was born on the 28th of October, so every year, we hold events for about three days leading up to that day to let people in Japan and around the world know about his achievements.

It's not a big event but I think that it should continue like this, quietly and calmly. If we tried to make into something big, it would lose its strength. So I'm thinking of keeping content like his special exhibition, the calligraphy class, and the judo practice with kids and parents, just as is, for a long time. Kano Sensei didn't like flashy things.

Guillaume Erard: Could you talk to us about the practice section of the event?

Sameshima Motonari: During the period of the birthday celebrations, we allow not just the members of the Kodokan to participate, but we also welcome the members of the general public to practice. This is a great system. In fact, judo is not just about throwing and being thrown, it's a physical activity that incorporates whole body movements.

In today's audience, we had people with black belts, people with white belts, people who had never done it before, mothers, fathers, and children. Since there may not usually be much communication between parents and children, we thought of doing this at the birthday party. It is one of the important parts of this birthday celebration. That's why the partner of Shimoyama Sensei (6th dan) who I taught the class was his own daughter and they really had fun doing it, so I think it was fantastic. In other sports, I don't think there are many opportunities for parents and children to laugh and interact with each other like that. I would like to continue in the future.

Guillaume Erard: Children really looked like they had a lot of fun today! What are the merits of Jūdō as an educational system compared to other sports?

Sameshima Motonari: I wish I had more time, but it was only an hour. Oh well, perhaps it is good to have such a compact one-hour format, because although I think that it was a lot of fun today, if we kept doing it a little longer, people might get sore.

Guillaume Erard: They'd need to know a bit more ukemi...

Sameshima Motonari: Yes. It can become painful, right? Therefore, I believe that sports should be fun. Both the government and the Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology recognize judo as a sport. There are a lot of sport practiced in the middle school and judo is one of them. However, if I was asked what the characteristics of Judo are, I would say that it is the element of tanren [disciplined training]. That's why we have kangeiko [mid-winter training] and shochu geiko [mid-summer training]. So, although people think that all sports have wonderful characteristics, I think that element such as training that are specific to judo compared to ball games and other events should not lose their Japanese characteristics.

I think that there are people who, on the contrary, move away from judo because there is an element of discipline but without discipline, I don't think one can become stronger as a human being. After all, it is important to be resilient. Because there are a lot of people who think that they are resilient is good, but they only say what they want, or eat what they want, but this won't lead to progress as a human being. But it can't be quantified. Education cannot be quantified.

Also, it takes time to see any result in education. Even if we did it for about an hour today, it won't be an educative experience per se. It was fun, but I think it takes years of practice to develop one's human character through judo.

Guillaume Erard: Could you explain to us what Kanō Sensei's calligraphy means?

Sameshima Motonari: Today is also the anniversary of the establishment of Judo by Kano Sensei. This is represented in the following calligraphy as: "Good use of energy" and "Mutual Prosperity" and I think that those who aspire to join Judo know these words. The power that makes the most effective use of body and mind. We say that mutual prosperity for ourselves and others will bring prosperity to all. Judo is not about wining or losing. Kano Jigoro Shihan designed it as a teaching method to make each other happy. Those words: "Good use of energy" and "Mutual Prosperity", The power that makes the most effective use of body and mind. If we and others prosper together, that will lead to world peace.

Guillaume Erard: How did Kanō Sensei intend those concepts to manifest themselves in Jūdō practitioners?

Sameshima Motonari: Kano Sensei's main idea is that it is not about only being happy by ourselves. Our family should be happy. Not only our family, but the people next door, the other people should be happy too. If you think about it in a broader sense, Japan can't be happy and at peace by itself. For instance, that's why there are many problems that are due to the Russian war on Ukraine, including shortages of food, oil and electricity are having an impact on the Japanese nation. I think that's exactly what Kano Sensei taught. I feel that we can't say the words "I'm happy" while a war like that between Ukraine and Russia exist.

Guillaume Erard: How does this mindfulness manifest itself in the technique, especially in a competitive

Sameshima Motonari: In the Judo training, we work in pairs, -- I think that Aikido is done at a distance, though of course, there are times when you come into contact. -- In judo, you do it together, so you can understand the opponent's feelings at the moment, and judo techniques are used to throw the opponent, lock on joints, and perform strangleholds. You can also do joints and chocking techniques. This is the technical structure of judo. If you don't have the feeling of respecting your opponent during that time, then it's just violence. So when you throw, you must throw so that the opponent does not get hurt. Why is there a choke technique or a lethal technique? It's a technique to control an opponent in an instant, but it is also a technique to take a joint to strangle an opponent while protecting him, waiting for him to get out of the way and taking it slowly. If you take it tightly, will you hurt him, right? Through this kind of technique, you can understand each other's feelings and become friends. That's the judo technique. Therefore, Olympic or World Championship matches are only a small part of this overall goal. So it is not all about who won gold medals. The person who won the gold medal just happened to win the competition. If we ask whether the people that Kano Sensei had in mind are those who are highly skilled, there are of course those who are, but there are also many who are not. It is only a matter of high technical level.

Guillaume Erard: Budō are ningen keisei no michi (paths of self development). In Aikidō, we talk about "budō of harmony". It sounds similar to what you are explaining, except that Jūdō has opposition through matches. How does this get resolved in Jūdō?

Sameshima Motonari: One of the aspects of Judo training are matches. In a match, in principle, the rules say who has won and who has lost, so there are always winners and losers. However, it's because there was an opponent at that time that you could understand the feeling that you had won. And even those who lost, if the other person showed consideration for them, they will want to try their best again. So, when it comes to the match, -- and it's the same in Aikido, -- if the person who throws the other does a victory pose, it's extremely rude to the person being thrown, so if you are considerate about the other person, you can't do something like a victory pose. As we repeat these things over and over, the purpose of the match should be to enhance each other. But now it's no longer a martial art, it's a sport, and the ranking of gold, silver, 1st place and 2nd and 3rd place has become the goal for young children. That's the purpose of youths, junior high school students, high school students, etc. That's why I think that Judo has to change. As a consequence, the All Japan Judo Federation eliminated elementary school matches. There is a need to be more open-minded, but that is difficult. After all, at first, we start training with the idea of winning. Kano Sensei also thought that competitions are useful for increasing judo popularity. However, he did not like the idea that the only purpose of this sport would be to establish who wins and loses, since it would not lead to the development of one's character. But people all over the world who practice judo should understand that. Therefore, the Kodokan never sets winning or losing as a goal when instructing. But it's difficult, we're still in the process of training ourselves when it comes to character development.

Guillaume Erard: Are those values explicitly shared throughout the world? Is it a function of the International Jūdō Federation?

Sameshima Motonari: Right now, we are in the process of instructing the International Judo Federation and others about attitudes after a match. So I think that judo instructors are now thinking about getting people to not do victory poses, etc. I think that is really the important part of Zanshin. And also in technique, very well-trained people are not getting injured when being thrown. However, if a young elementary or junior high school student thrower falls down, this can result in a big accident, such as hitting one's head. Therefore, the thrower, retains a firm zanshin even after throwing. That is what we are currently teaching at the Kodokan. That's why the one who throws with zanshin doesn't fall over. Then, the one being thrown does a graceful ukemi. because if he pulls the chest before the throw, the other will will fall too. And since we both have judogi, if they pull them together they will balance each other out. I called it a lifeline, so zanshin, purity, and lifeline. If you follow these 3 things, you won't get injured very often. Judo is practiced to prevent injuries, so injuring others is outrageous, and it's the same as violence.

Guillaume Erard: Aikidō rejects competitive mindset, yet I guess there can be some benefits to sometimes experiencing resistance or even failure.

Sameshima Motonari: Yes, I think so. That's why I said earlier that Kano Sensei thought that matches are necessary for the spread and development of judo, but since this is a form of judo training, if there is something like this in aikido, it will be more like judo. I think that if aikido had something like this, the number of judo practitioners would increase, and the techniques would develop as well. But that's not all. Judo and aikido are both about human development, and I think that's what budo is all about.

Guillaume Erard: To what extent do competitive rules determine what techniques are and aren't being studied in class nowadays? Doesn't this risk to reduce the scope of the technical repertoire?

Sameshima Motonari: Judo instructors are getting younger now, so there are more young people, so we are doing it within the current rules. Therefore, the old atemi-waza being dangerous, so it is not used in actual practice. Also, techniques that have been proven to cause many injuries in matches are banned in the rules. Therefore, I believe that it is wrong to teach and cause injury to others. There are many ways to teach, but it is wrong to teach in a way that causes injury. So, for example, in osotogari, if you let go of the hand I mentioned earlier, you'll hit your head. This is a practice mistake. But if it's the original killing technique, to kill the opponent, you throw him and let go. Now that's extremely dangerous, right? Therefore, if there is such a dangerous judo technique, we must stop at once. The referee also has a rule that if there is something dangerous, he must stop the match immediately by telling the player "mate!". Therefore, we are really trying to prevent safety injuries, and although there may have been various techniques in the past to cause injuries, they are no longer used.

Guillaume Erard: Does this mean that there is no formal teaching of the older techniques?

Sameshima Motonari: The old techniques? No, there aren't many people who understand the old techniques, so we can't teach them that way. There are only modern techniques. That's really true of all fields, but people who specialize know what they are doing, but the general public doesn't.

Guillaume Erard: Budō is said to be practiced for one's entire life. Do practitioners who reach old age still engage in competitions?

Sameshima Motonari: I think the conditions for competing are in place, but each person is different. But a match is a tournament, like the all-Japan tournament, the Olympics is a tournament, and you can participate in matches for the rest of your life, like during friendly matches for recreation purposes. So, if you think of a competition as a ranking order, you have to be at your best in order to compete. So for example, if you are an Olympian and you get to 30 or 35 years old, all you can do is fall from the top of the world, right? But for example, at the Kodokan, there is a high dan tournament with 5th dan, 6th dan, 7th dan and 8-dan matches. There are people who are about 90 years old that also take part in matches. You can have matches at any age.

Guillaume Erard: Why did Kanō Sensei adopt the dan system and how are they awarded?

Sameshima Motonari: In Judo, when it comes to challenge, Kano Sensei created a Dan system of ranks. If you get to 5th Dan, your challenge is the 6th Dan, and then your challenge becomes the 7th Dan, and so on. He created that path. So, for example, if you aim for the 3rd Dan, you may think that 3rd Dan is enough, but once you get it, you will try again for 4th Dan. So, I think that Kano Sensei understood those instincts of human beings very well, and I think it is still a wonderful system. It takes time in order to move up a Dan, for example, from 7th to 8th dan, it takes 12 years. Also there are tournaments and you need 10 points. You get 1 point for a win, and 0.5 points for a draw. So, it's a very difficult system to move up a rank. After all, human beings are capable of taking on such challenges, -- I'm not sure how many people from all over the country to participate in this once-a-year tournament for high ranks, perhaps 1,500? --- 0 points for a loss, 0.5 for a draw, 1 for a win, in the end you will have to score 10 points, and you have 12 years to do that, and then there is the need for refereeing skills. You can only be promoted to a higher rank when you satisfy a variety of factors.

Guillaume Erard: Jūdō used to be very popular in France but this is declining as children turn to other sports. What is the situation in Japan in terms of youths? How are youngsters still attracted towards Jūdō?

Sameshima Motonari: Actually, I have been to France several times to see judo clubs. Therefore, I don't think the figure that the judo population in France is larger than that in Japan, as what some people say, because the basic numbers are different. In Japan, there are 2.4 million people who have black belts. Actually, the number of people who are still alive is 2.1 million. So, if you compare those populations, the standard of the number is totally different from the standard of thinking. In this sense, I have visited France to observe judo and have taught in France. It was like: "Today it is judo, tomorrow it is soccer, the next is basketball, the next is swimming", and in this way, I think they are cultivating physical activity among children in a very good way. This may become the case in Japan as well. However, when I look at the children who come to the Kodokan, I see that for most of them it's their parents who want their children to study judo, and while their goal may of course be to become stronger, many of them come to the Kodokan for the sake of etiquette and discipline. I don't think that it's really what first grade or kindergarten children would want to do as of themselves. But that's an education system, so parents give their children that chance. And I think that judo should be one of the ways to grow, not only judo, but also soccer, swimming, and basketball, just like in France. And even if you become a judo champion in elementary school, you often cannot become one in junior high or high school. So even though you are learning judo now, you can always move on to another sport. We want them to have a variety of experiences. So I don't think it is necessary to say, "Do what you are doing now or continue this for the rest of your life." I think it is very important to train your mind and body well now and then further experience other sports in your life.

Guillaume Erard: The Aikidō population is certainly getting older, what about that of Judō?

Sameshima Motonari: When we say "old people", what age are we talking about? It is still difficult to distinguish sports and martial arts in Japan, but I think that the most well known Japanese athletic sports are judo and kendo. However, students including current college students, and young people who have graduated from college, and I don't know how old they are, have one thing in common: I think they have a longing for judo. If you have strong judo, you will become strong. But if they don't have the courage to do it here, they won't have the courage to do it there. And since there is a possibility that we may gradually move away from traditional Japanese athletic culture, I think that although young people may like the judo they see, judo will not be the sport of choice for them to actually do. Therefore, even though judo originated in Japan, there are still good things from other countries, so there is no longer any need to stick to Japanese kendo or judo as a martial art, and I think that is fine.

Guillaume Erard: The pandemic seems to have negatively affected the memberships, but also led to some changes with people focusing on solo training. What have been the effects, positive or negative, of the pandemic on Jūdō?

Sameshima Motonari: [Practice] by yourself, right? It 's just like you said. In the Kodokan too. There was a period when the practice in the dojo itself was stopped. But when the number of students decreased, it was OK to come to Kodokan. However, we created phases and at first, training was done by oneself. So what we have found over time is that the children's bodies have become more solid. Until then, they always relied on their partner to work with them, and their balance, etc., has been dependent on their partner, but through training alone, their so-called core body axis has become more solid. Also, for example, when they all did push-ups, they would have to do 10 times in total, but they only actually did it about 5 times. But then that was the only training they could do, so they did 10 times on their own. I felt like they could do it themselves. So I don't necessarily think that the pandemic was had that negative an effect. Of course, there were a lot of negative aspects, but I could see the positive aspects. The kids are getting really solid through training alone. Conversely, I believe that they have come to understand that judo cannot be practiced without an opponent, and that the importance of the physical person and the opponent has become clear to them, I believe that we were also able to provide such guidance. Therefore, I think we have done most of what we can do in terms of action. I am now in a different position, but I got tired after being in charge as the director of this dojo for three years, including the two years of pandemic. We need to think about a system for how to keep judo relevant for children, in the old days, you only had to teach judo and children would come. Without children, we are just normal human beings, and we are only meaningful as leaders when we have students, I also felt the importance of the children's growth, and I was grateful for their presence. I think that's why all the instructors were grateful to the children.

Guillaume Erard: Thank you very much Sensei.